Payscale 2015-2016: Early Career Salaries, by University, Grad and Professional Degrees

The latest PayScale report contains a lot of extremely useful information about salaries of college grads.  But the list below, with more than 250 rows,  shows the early career pay, by graduate degree and institution because so many current and prospective honors students will end up pursuing graduate and professional degrees.

The salaries listed are for JD’s, MBA’s, Masters, and Ph.D.’s, with the last two degree types showing pay for degree holders working mostly in government and private industry. Many of these have earned Masters and Ph.D.’s in STEM disciplines.

Please note that several universities, public and private, have entries for all four categories above .

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Degree TypeUniversity and Professional SchoolEarly Pay
MBAMassachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) - Sloan School of Management131000
MBAUniversity of California, Berkeley - Haas School of Business123000
MBAYale University - School of Management123000
MBAWharton School of the University of Pennsylvania122000
MBAUniversity of Chicago - Booth School of Business122000
JDHarvard Law School118000
MBAStanford University Graduate School of Business118000
MBANorthwestern University - Kellogg Business School117000
MBAHarvard Business School114000
MBADartmouth College - Tuck School of Business111000
MBAUniversity of Virginia (UVA) - Darden School of Business111000
PhDStanford University111000
PhDMassachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)105000
PhDCarnegie Mellon University (CMU)105000
MBAColumbia Business School104000
MBACornell University - Johnson Graduate School of Management (JGSM)104000
MBAUniversity of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) - Anderson School of Management103000
PhDHarvard University103000
MBADuke University - Fuqua School of Business102000
PhDUniversity of California - Santa Barbara (UCSB)102000
MBAUniversity of Notre Dame - Mendoza College of Business101000
PhDUniversity of California - Berkeley101000
MBAUniversity of Michigan - Stephen M. Ross School of Business100000
MBACarnegie Mellon University (CMU) - Tepper School100000
MBABabson College - F.W. Olin Graduate School of Business96900
PhDCalifornia Institute of Technology (Caltech)95600
MBAVanderbilt University - Business School94800
MBANew York University (NYU) Leonard N. Stern School of Business94700
MBAUniversity of Texas (UT) - Austin McCombs School of Business94600
PhDRensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI)94000
MBAGeorgetown University McDonough - School of Business93300
PhDUniversity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)93100
PhDPrinceton University92700
PhDGeorgia Institute of Technology92300
PhDCornell University - Ithaca, NY92000
JDUniversity of California - Hastings College of Law91700
MBAUniversity of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC) - Kenan-Flagler Business School91600
PhDColumbia University90300
PhDUniversity of California - Los Angeles (UCLA)90200
Master'sUnited States Naval Postgraduate School89800
PhDPurdue University - Main Campus89500
PhDUniversity of California - Irvine (UCI)89500
PhDUniversity of Houston (UH)89400
PhDArizona State University (ASU)89200
MBAGeorgia Tech - College of Management88800
PhDUniversity of Massachusetts (UMass) - Amherst Campus88500
MBAUniversity of Southern California - Marshall School of Business88300
PhDUniversity of Michigan - Ann Arbor88100
PhDUniversity of California - Davis (UC Davis)87900
JDUniversity of Houston Law Center87400
MBAUniversity of Minnesota - Carlson School of Management86900
PhDUniversity of Texas (UT) - Austin86900
MBATexas Christian University (TCU) - Neeley School of Business86700
MBASanta Clara University - Leavey School of Business86600
PhDUniversity of Wisconsin (UW) - Madison86600
PhDUniversity of Minnesota - Twin Cities86100
MBABoston University - School of Management85900
PhDUniversity of Florida (UF)85900
MBAVillanova University - Villanova School of Business85800
MBABoston College - Wallace E. Carroll School of Management85500
PhDUniversity of California - San Diego (UCSD)85300
PhDJohns Hopkins University85200
MBAEmory University - Goizueta Business School85100
MBAUniversity of California Davis (UC Davis) - Graduate School of Management85000
PhDRice University84900
PhDUniversity of Rochester84700
MBAUniversity of Washington (UW) - Foster School of Business84200
MBABrigham Young University (BYU) - Marriott School of Business84100
PhDYale University84100
Master'sUniversity of Nebraska Medical Center83800
MBAWake Forest School of Business83800
Master'sStanford University83400
PhDPennsylvania State University (Penn State) - Main Campus83300
PhDUniversity of Southern California (USC)83200
PhDNorth Carolina State University (NCSU)82900
PhDVirginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (Virginia Tech)82500
MBAUniversity of California Irvine (UCI) - Paul Merage School of Business82400
PhDTexas A&M University - Main Campus82400
PhDUniversity of Utah82300
PhDUniversity of Maryland - College Park82100
PhDDuke University82100
MBASouthern Methodist University (SMU) - Cox School of Business81900
PhDUniversity of Colorado - Boulder (CU)81900
PhDMichigan State University (MSU)81900
MBAUniversity of California San Diego (UCSD) - Rady School of Management81700
PhDOhio State University (OSU) - Main Campus81600
JDGeorgetown University Law Center81500
JDSanta Clara University School of Law81300
MBAOhio State University (OSU) - Fisher College of Business81100
Master'sCarnegie Mellon University (CMU)81000
JDUniversity of Texas at Austin School of Law80900
Master'sMassachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)80900
PhDUniversity of Virginia (UVA) - Main Campus80900
PhDUniversity of Notre Dame80700
MBAUniversity of Connecticut (Uconn) - School of Business80600
PhDUniversity of Central Florida (UCF)80600
MBAThunderbird, The American Graduate School of International Management80500
PhDUniversity of Pennsylvania80400
JDUniversity of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) - College of Law80300
PhDUniversity of Pittsburgh - Main Campus80200
JDBrooklyn Law School80100
MBAKelley School of Business, Indiana University80000
MBAUniversity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) College of Business80000
Master'sSanta Clara University79700
MBAUniversity of Maryland - Robert H. Smith School of Business79700
PhDAuburn University79500
PhDBoston University79400
MBAGeorge Washington University (GWU) - School of Business79200
MBAThe University of Iowa - Henry B. Tippie College of Business79200
PhDUniversity of Washington (UW) - Main Campus79000
MBATulane University - A.B. Freeman School of Business78700
Master'sSan Jose State University (SJSU)78500
PhDUniversity of Arizona78300
PhDUniversity of Illinois at Chicago78300
PhDIndiana University (IU) - Bloomington78200
MBAPepperdine University - Graziadio School of Business and Management77900
JDPepperdine University School of Law77700
MBABentley University - McCallum Graduate School of Business77600
JDGeorge Washington University Law School77100
PhDUniversity of Tennessee77100
JDBoston University School of Law76800
MBAUniversity of Wisconsin (UW) - Madison School of Business76800
PhDIowa State University76800
MBAUniversity of Pittsburgh - Katz Graduate School of Business76600
PhDWashington State University (WSU)76600
JDMcGeorge School of Law76300
PhDClarkson University - Potsdam, NY76300
JDUniversity of Southern California Law Center and Law Library76200
JDFordham University School of Law76200
Master'sKettering University76200
MBAVirginia Commonwealth School of Business76000
PhDUniversity of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC)75800
MBAWashington University - Olin Business School75600
JDSouthern Methodist University School of Law75500
MBAUniversity of Rochester - Simon School of Business75100
Master'sUniversity of South Alabama75000
JDUniversity of California at Berkeley School of Law74900
PhDRutgers University - New Brunswick Campus74800
MBAFordham University - Gabelli School of Business74700
MBAThe College of William and Mary - Mason School of Business74700
JDUniversity of Miami School of Law74600
Master'sCornell University - Ithaca, NY74500
PhDUniversity of Connecticut (UConn) - Main Campus74500
JDUniversity of Washington (UW) School of Law74000
MBARutgers Business School74000
MBAPurdue University - Krannert School of Management73900
Master'sGeorgia Institute of Technology73800
MBAUniversity of Delaware - Alfred Lerner College of Business and Economics73800
JDSt. John's University School of Law, New York73700
MBANortheastern University - D'Amore-McKim School of Business73400
JDSeton Hall University School of Law73300
MBAMichigan State University - Broad College of Business73300
MBACUNY Bernard M Baruch College - Zicklin School of Business73200
JDUniversity of San Diego (USD) School of Law73100
Master'sStevens Institute of Technology73000
MBALehigh University College of Business and Economics72900
JDEmory University School of Law72700
MBAUniversity of Arizona - Eller College of Management72400
MBAPennsylvania State University (PSU) - Smeal College of Business72300
MBASuffolk University - Sawyer School of Management72100
Master'sRochester Institute of Technology (RIT)71900
MBAArizona State University (ASU) - W. P. Carey School of Business71900
MBAUniversity of Massachusetts (UMass) - Boston Campus71900
MBALoyola Marymount College of Business Administration71800
PhDNorthwestern University71700
MBAJohns Hopkins University - Carey Business School71400
PhDVanderbilt University71300
JDLoyola Law School71200
Master'sWorcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI)71100
JDUniversity of North Carolina (UNC) School of Law71000
MBAGeorge Mason University - School of Management71000
MBAUniversity of Colorado Boulder (UCB) - Leeds School of Business70900
MBAUniversity of Arkansas - Sam M. Walton College of Business70900
JDUniversity of Illinois College of Law70700
Master'sPurdue University - Main Campus70700
MBAOklahoma State University (OSU) - Spears School of Business70700
MBACase Western Reserve University - Weatherhead School of Management70600
MBAUniversity of Miami School of Business (Florida)70500
MBAUniversity of Georgia (UGA) - Terry College of Business70500
Master'sManhattan College70400
Master'sNYU Polytechnic School of Engineering70200
Master'sUniversity of California - Berkeley70100
Master'sMissouri University of Science and Technology (S&T)70000
MBAAmerican University - Kogod School of Business70000
Master'sEmbry-Riddle Aeronautical University (ERAU) - Daytona Beach, FL69900
MBAUniversity of Texas at Dallas - Naveen Jindal School of Management69900
MBAClarkson University - Clarkson School of Business69700
MBAUniversity of Houston (UH) - C.T. Bauer College of Business69600
PhDColorado State University (CSU)69400
Master'sUniversity of Texas at Dallas69300
MBATexas State University - San Marcos Campus69200
Master'sMedical University of South Carolina69100
MBAUniversity of Florida (UF) - Warrington College of Business69100
JDSeattle University School of Law68900
JDUniversity of Connecticut (UConn) School of Law68700
MBADuquesne University - A.J. Palumbo School of Bus Admin and John F. Donahue Grad School of Bus68700
JDDetroit College of Law at Michigan State University68600
MBADrexel University - Bennett S. LeBow College of Business68600
Master'sMichigan Technological University68500
MBATexas A&M University - Mays Business School68500
MBAUniversity of South Carolina - Darla Moore School of Business68400
JDAmerican University Washington College of Law68300
MBAUniversity of St. Thomas - Opus College of Business68300
Master'sColorado School of Mines68200
Master'sGannon University68200
Master'sUniversity of California - Irvine (UCI)67900
Master'sVanderbilt University67900
MBASan Francisco State University (SFSU) - College of Business67900
MBAClemson University - College of Business and Behavioral Science67800
Master'sPrinceton University67700
Master'sLehigh University67700
Master'sUniversity of Michigan - Dearborn Campus67700
Master'sTufts University67700
Master'sIllinois Institute of Technology (IIT)67500
MBASan Jose State University (SJSU) - College of Business, and Lucas Graduate School of Business67500
JDUniversity of Florida (UF) Levin College of Law67400
Master'sUniversity of Southern California (USC)67400
Master'sPennsylvania State University (Penn State) - Great Valley Campus67400
JDTemple University School of Law67300
Master'sRensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI)67300
Master'sCalifornia Polytechnic State University (CalPoly) - San Luis Obispo67300
Master'sClarkson University - Potsdam, NY67200
Master'sUniversity of Colorado at Colorado Springs67200
MBAWayne State University - Detroit, MI67100
Master'sUniversity of Alabama - Huntsville Campus67000
Master'sTexas A&M University - Main Campus67000
MBAUniversity of New Haven67000
MBADePaul University - Kellstadt Graduate School of Business66900
Master'sNortheastern University66800
MBAOakland University - Rochester Hills, MI66700
MBAWestminster College - Salt Lake City, UT66700
JDUniversity of Minnesota Law School66600
MBAUniversity of Kansas - School of Business66500
JDUniversity of Denver College of Law66400
Master'sNew Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT)66400
PhDFlorida State University (FSU)66400
Master'sUniversity of California - San Diego (UCSD)66300
Master'sIdaho State University (ISU)66200
MBASan Diego State University (SDSU) - College of Business Administration66200
MBASt. Xavier University66200
JDNew England School of Law66100
Master'sDuke University66100
Master'sBowie State University (BSU)66100
JDTulane Law School65700
MBATemple University - Fox School of Business and Management65700
MBAUniversity of Utah - David Eccles School of Business65600
Master'sJohns Hopkins University65500
Master'sUniversity of Colorado - Boulder (CU)65500
Master'sNorth Carolina State University (NCSU)65500
MBASUNY Albany - School of Business65500
JDJohn Marshall Law School - Chicago, IL65400
Master'sUniversity of California - Santa Barbara (UCSB)65400
Master'sUniversity of Houston (UH)65400
Master'sPhiladelphia University65300
JDCalifornia Western School of Law65200
Master'sUniversity of Massachusetts (UMass) - Lowell Campus65200
MBAFlorida State University (FSU) - College of Business65200
MBAGeorgia State University - J. Mack Robinson College of Business65100
MBASeattle University - Albers School of Business and Economics65100
Master'sBentley University65000
Master'sPurdue University - Calumet Campus65000
MBACalifornia State University East Bay (CSUEB) - College of Business and Economics65000
MBALoyola University of Chicago - Quinlan School of Business65000
MBAUniversity of Denver - Business School65000
>

 

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Honors News: August 13, 2015

Have you ever notice that the Academic Reputation scores in the U.S News Best Colleges ranking can be very high for several public universities although their overall ranking is much lower than other schools with less stellar reputations?

Of course, there can be good reasons for this discrepancy: larger class sizes in public universities, lower graduation rates, etc. But…honors colleges and programs within the larger institutions offset the negatives and offer their students opportunities to take advantage of the factors contributing to the strong academic reputations.

First, these are factors to consider if the state university’s academic reputation is much stronger than its overall ranking:

1.  The overall rankings penalize public universities for their typically larger class sizes, but the average class size in the 50 major honors programs we track is only 21.2 students, much smaller than the average class size for the universities as a whole.  Most of these honors classes are lower-division, where the preponderance of large classes is the norm.  Result:  the relatively poor rating the whole university might receive for class size is offset for honors students.

2.  The overall rankings hit some public universities hard for having relatively low retention and graduation percentages, but freshmen retention rates in honors programs are in the 90% range and higher; meanwhile six-year grad rates for honors entrants average 89%–much higher than the average rates for the universities as a whole.  Result: the lower rates for the universities as a whole are offset for honors students.

3.  All public universities suffer in the overall rankings because U.S. News assigns ranking points for both the wealth of the university as a whole and for the impact that wealth has on professors’ salaries, smaller class sizes, etc.  This is a double whammy in its consideration of inputs and outputs separately; only the outputs should be rated.  Result: the outputs for class size (see above) are offset for honors students, and the wealth of the university as an input should not be considered in the first place.

4.  For highly-qualified students interested in graduate or professional school, academic reputation and the ability to work with outstanding research faculty are big advantages. Honors students have enhanced opportunities to work with outstanding faculty members even in large research universities, many of which are likely to have strong departmental rankings in the student’s subject area.  Result: honors students are not penalized for the research focus of public research universities; instead, they benefit from it.

5.  Many wealthy private elites are generous in funding all, or most, need-based aid, but increasingly offer little or no merit aid.  This means that families might receive all the need-based aid they “deserve” according to a federal or institutional calculation and still face annual college costs of $16,000 to $50,000.  On the other hand, national scholars and other highly-qualified students can still receive significant merit aid at most public universities.  Result: if a public university has an academic reputation equal to that of a wealthy private elite, an honors student could be better off financially and not suffer academically in a public honors program.

But…what if the academic reputation of the public university is lower than that of a private school under consideration?   In this case, the public honors option should offer the following offsets:

1. The net cost advantage of the public university, including merit aid, probably needs to be significant.

2.  It is extremely important to evaluate the specific components of the honors program to determine if it provides a major “value-added” advantage–is it, relatively, better than the university as a whole.  Typically, the answer will be yes.  To determine how much better, look at the academic disciplines covered by the honors program, the actual class sizes, retention and graduation rates, research opportunities, and even honors housing and perks, such as priority registration.

Honors News is a regular (not always daily) update, in brief, of recent news from honors colleges/programs and from the world of higher ed. Occasionally, a bit of opinion enters the discussion. These brief posts are by John Willingham, unless otherwise noted.

How Much Should Public Universities Spend on Merit Aid?

Critics claim that public universities spend far too much on merit aid at a time when the focus should be on providing more need-based assistance, but the uses of merit aid are many, as are the reasons that drive the aid decisions at individual institutions.

The main problem for leading institutions, especially, is how to balance quality, access, state interests (including revenue), and public perception. In general, the most vocal critics of merit aid believe that access should trump all the other factors.

Two recent examples of that criticism come from the New America Foundation: Colleges’ Pursuit of Prestige and Revenue Is Hurting Low-Income Students and The Out of State Student Arms Race, both by analyst Stephen Burd.

First of all, some of the arguments in these and other reports are valid. For one thing, there is no doubt that the U.S. News rankings drive many colleges to spend money on generating better metrics, especially those related to test scores, selectivity, and student/faculty ratios. Some schools have become proficient in gaming the system.

The U.S. News methodology currently gives a combined weight of 9.25% to test scores and selection ratios. The use of the latter should be scrapped, given the increased use of the Common App and marketing geared to ramping up applications just for the sake of lowering acceptance ratios. (As for test scores, there are ways that colleges can game that metric as well.) The methodology also assigns a weight of 22.5% to multiple financial metrics that also pressure colleges to raise and spend more money.

State budget cuts and rising costs for instruction, research, and administration have also led to the need for more revenue. Just how much of the additional revenue is actually necessary for improved instruction is a matter of contention. (See for example Baumol’s Cost Disease and The Bowen Effect.) The combined effects of state disinvestment and the obsession with prestige and rankings have undoubtedly led to the intense focus on increasing revenues.

Yet after granting the critics a fair measure of credit, we come back to the four main factors that affect the allocation of merit aid, discussed below. And here’s a proposed standard for balancing the factors: If merit aid is denied to highly qualified, low-income students who are residents of the state, and goes instead to out-of-state students whose qualifications are about the same or less, then the merit aid is being used excessively for revenue purposes.

Quality–As noted elsewhere on this blog, the elite colleges and universities in this country, almost all of them private, simply do not have enough slots for the top 8-10% of students, based on test scores. Most of the highly talented students who are not accepted by elite private colleges will end up at public universities. Those public universities that allocate funds to support smaller classes and undergraduate research for talented students through honors programs, along with merit aid, are not only spending money to recruit students with higher test scores in order to enhance their prestige; they are also filling a real need by providing more slots for talented students. In addition, many are trying to keep talented students in state rather than seeing them leave, never to return. All too often, critics of public university spending ignore these needs.

Access–The relationship of merit aid to greater access for lower-income students is complex. Rankings and prestige have an impact on merit aid allocations, but that impact is not always what the critics see.

Some elite public universities (UC Berkeley, Michigan) offer higher percentages of merit aid than other public universities that are excellent but not so elite (although the average amounts of merit aid from Berkeley and Michigan are not especially large.) Why? The competition for UC Berkeley and Michigan includes many private elite schools, and sometimes even modest merit aid can be the deciding factor. Private universities such as Chicago, Northwestern, and Rice also offer significant merit aid, and do so to compete with the Ivies, Stanford, etc., who are so much in demand that they don’t have to offer non-need-based aid.

The University of Virginia and the University of North Carolina also compete effectively against private elites, but they have chosen to provide very limited merit aid.

For public universities at the next level, Washington, Illinois, UT Austin, Wisconsin, the competition is often with other publics, and they more than hold their own. Partly as a result of being in high demand regardless of aid, UT Austin has one of the highest enrollments of Pell Grant students and offers little in the way of merit aid.

But when it comes to public universities with lesser reputations than those listed above, the balance between aid for quality or aid for access may tip too far toward quality, sometimes with an eye on improving rankings and revenue. New America singles out the University of Alabama and the University of South Carolina for criticism. How much of this criticism is valid?

State Interests/Revenue–The state of South Carolina now funds only 10 percent of the cost of education at the flagship university. Moreover, the number of college-age students in the state is declining. New America criticizes the University of South Carolina for awarding too much merit aid to out-of-state students, who still end up providing more revenue out of pocket than in-state students, and also help to sustain enrollment levels.

If the university allocated most or almost all of its aid to need-based students within the state, the revenue would drop dramatically and the expense per student would rise. The university would probably be unable to support its excellent honors college; for that matter, the university would eventually be unable to serve as many students period. So even if the state legislature undervalues higher education, the university and many citizens believe it is in the interest of the state to increase the number of college graduates (and their families) over the long haul, and not diminish the university in the process.

Is the percentage of non-resident freshmen (45%) too high, and the merit aid they receive too much? To answer those questions, one would need to know (1) whether many highly qualified (but low-income) in-state students are not receiving aid because the aid is going to out-of-state students with equal or lesser qualifications; and (2) how many of talented out of state students will remain in South Carolina after graduation.  To the extent that highly qualified, low-income, in-state students are losing out, then the out  of state aid should be reduced.

Public Perception–Funding honors programs and offering merit aid to talented students can certainly increase the selectivity profile of a university and eventually enhance rankings and public perception. But we would draw a distinction between the aggressive gaming of the rankings and the more justifiable funding that is related to legitimate state interests. New America suggests that the extremely generous merit aid that the University of Alabama offers to talented out-of-state students is mainly to enhance rankings. But, contrary to what New America claims, the Alabama U.S. News ranking has actually fallen 13 places since 2012.

The University of Mississippi is another flagship that offers generous merit aid. What is also true is that the state of Mississippi has the second lowest percentage of college grads in the nation, and Alabama the 7th lowest. Surely these states should find ways to sustain their flagship institutions, and merit aid, for now, is one of those ways. Who knows but that some day they might join UVA, UNC Chapel Hill, UT Austin, Wisconsin and others that can go forward without so much emphasis on merit aid.

Again, we agree with New America that many universities, including some major public institutions, do use merit aid, at least in part, for purposes of moving up in college rankings and sometimes excessively for revenue purposes. But the total picture is much more complicated, resulting in one of the most difficult issues to emerge from state disinvestment in higher education.

Accepted to All the Ivies and Stanford–Chooses Alabama Honors

Editor’s note: The following article is by Peter Jacobs of Business Insider. We are posting it here because it is a great illustration of the main advantage of many public honors colleges and programs–merit aid for highly talented students that they cannot receive at most private elites.

After some thought and consideration of all the schools’ offers, Nelson decided it wouldn’t be worth the financial strain to use this money on his undergraduate education. He plans on going to medical school after college, and knows he’ll be faced with more tuition costs.

“With people being in debt for years and years, it wasn’t a burden that Ronald wanted to take on and it wasn’t a burden that we wanted to deal with for a number of years after undergraduate,” Ronald Sr. said. “We can put that money away and spend it on his medical school, or any other graduate school.”

University Alabama Quad Denny Chimes Campus

Looking long term, Nelson doesn’t think his decision will impact his chances of getting in to a top medical school or other graduate program. After speaking with his teachers and guidance counselors, Nelson said, he realized that “any undergraduate school can prepare you for a graduate program. It’s just determined on how much work you’re willing to put in.”

At UA, Nelson will be part of the university’s “Fellows Experience” through its honors college. A visit to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, as part of the program’s multiround interview process helped seal the deal for UA. He got to meet other students he would study with over the next four years and was impressed by them.

“It was kind of amazing being around so many like-minded students, which is why I think I’ll be able to have a similar situation [to an Ivy League school], considering the type of students they’re attracting,” Nelson said.

The financial incentive for attending Alabama was high. Due to his high standardized-test scores on the SAT and ACT, UA waived Nelson’s out-of-state fees and covered his tuition costs. Through the fellows program and his National Merit scholarship, Nelson will also have stipends for extra campus costs and potentially studying abroad.

While some people may see his decision to turn down schools such as Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford as ill considered or shortsighted, Nelson said he’s received a ton of support for choosing UA. One teacher, he told Business Insider, complimented him for “making such an informed decision” about where to work towards his undergraduate degree.

“I’ve had a lot of people questioning me — ‘Why are you doing this?’ — but after I explain my circumstances, they definitely understand where I’m coming from,” Nelson said.

Overall, though, Nelson doesn’t appear to have any regrets about his decision and seems excited to start college in the fall.

“The Ivy League experience would certainly be something amazing, to make these connections, and have these amazing professors,” he said. “But I really do think I’ll be able to make the same experience for myself at the college I chose.”

Here Are 23 Reasons for College Choice–and a Note on the Honors Option

Editor’s note: The following list comes from a post by college consultant Nancy Griesemer, who writes regular for the Washington Examiner. Read the full post, and consult the always fascinating UCLA Freshman Report for more information.

Griesemer notes in her post that while 73% of applicants are accepted by their first choice college, only 55% end up enrolling at that institution. Clearly, cost is a big factor behind these stats, and points to an issue of concern to us: finding a place for students smart enough to get into elite private colleges but cannot attend the private school of their choice for financial reasons.

In addition, with the current emphasis on selectivity as a major metric in the U.S. News rankings, highly talented students are being ever more widely recruited by elite universities and, at the same time, finding their odds of acceptance significantly reduced. For these students, the relatively high first choice acceptance cited above does not obtain.

So…insufficient merit aid to offset costly private tuition and expenses, plus capricious selectivity designed to make schools look better by  rejecting smart applicants, have helped boost public honors programs where students can find quality at a lower cost, along with a better overall mix of students.

The arrows below indicate whether the response percentage has increased or decreased since the previous year’s survey.

1. College has a very good academic reputation (65.4 percent)↑
2. This college’s graduates get good jobs (53.4 percent)↑
3. I was offered financial assistance (46.9 percent)↓
4. The cost of attending this college (44.9 percent)↓
5. College has a good reputation for social activities (42.8 percent)↓
6. A visit to the campus (42.4 percent)↓
7. Wanted to go to a college about this size (36.6 percent)↓
8. Grads get into good grad/professional schools (32.9 percent)↓
9. Percent of students that graduate from this college (31.1 percent)↑
10. Wanted to live near home (20.7 percent)↑
11. Information from a website (18.8 percent)↑
12. Rankings in national magazines (18 percent)↑
13. Parents wanted me to go to this school (17.2 percent)↓
14. Admitted early decision and/or early action (15.7 percent)↑
15. Could not afford first choice (14.1 percent)↓
16. Not offered aid by first choice (10.6 percent)↓
17. High school counselor advised me (10.4 percent)↑
18. Athletic department recruited me (9.1 percent)↓
19. My relatives wanted me to come here (8 percent)↑
20. Attracted by religious affiliation/orientation of college (7.3 percent)↓
21. My teacher advised me (7.2 percent)↑
22. Private college counselor advised me (4.6 percent)↑
23. Ability to take online courses (4.1 percent)↑

 

 

U.S. News Rankings at Odds with Quality of Academic Departments

Comparing the departmental rankings of leading public research universities to the overall rankings of the same schools by U.S. News yields striking disparities, emphasizing the impact that selectivity, class size, and financial resources have on the U.S. News listings, to the detriment of other factors.

(See also Rankings, Academic Departments: Private Elites vs Publics.)

As we have pointed out elsewhere, honors students have fewer concerns about class size because honors classes in the first two years tend to be much smaller than regular classes; and while selectivity is a driver of graduation rates, honors students have a six-year rate average grad rate approaching 90 percent in major public honors programs, with many significantly higher than 90 percent.

We have also commented before that the strong faculties at leading public research universities are competitive with many private elite national universities.  Soon we will update our post that compares the most recent departmental rankings of both public and private research universities.   In the meantime, below are the public research universities with the highest overall departmental rankings, listed along with their U.S. News ranking to illustrate the disparities.

The fifteen disciplines surveyed are business (undergrad); engineering (undergrad); biological sciences; chemistry; computer science; earth sciences; economics; education; English; history; math; physics; political science; psychology; and sociology.

Please note that many universities with highly-ranked academic departments (e.g., Indiana, Minnesota) do not have correspondingly high rankings in U.S. News.  The converse is also true: some highly ranked universities (e.g., Virginia) don’t have the highest ranked academic departments.

One of the main reasons for this kind of discrepancy is that U.S. News emphasizes selectivity and small class sizes, and some public universities with extremely strong faculties are not highly selective (Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Washington) or have larger classes than many other universities.  But many class sections over the first two years, normally large for non-honors students, are usually much smaller for honors students. The takeaway for prospective honors students: selectivity for the university as a whole and the size of all classes at the university are less important for you than for non-honors students.

We certainly recognize the excellent instruction that occurs at, for example, William & Mary, Wake Forest, Lehigh, Carlton, Swarthmore, Williams, etc., regardless of whether or how highly their academic departments are rated.  But for highly qualified students who are looking at large research universities, we do believe the rankings of departments matters quite a bit.

Not included below are universities that do not have ranked departments in at least 13 of the 15 academic disciplines.  Notable among these is Georgia Tech, with its nationally renowned engineering programs and a very strong business department.

UC Berkeley has an average national departmental ranking of 3.33 across the 15 disciplines mentioned above.  Please bear in mind that the rankings below include all national universities, public and private.  All of the top five universities below–UC Berkeley, Michigan, Wisconsin, UCLA, and UT Austin–have no academic departments among the 15 disciplines surveyed that are ranked lower than 30.

University U.S. News Rank Avg Natl Dept Rank
UC Berkeley 20 3.33
Michigan 29 9.40
Wisconsin 47 12.40
UCLA 23 12.43
UT Austin 53 14.93
Illinois 42 19.47
Washington 48 21.33
Minnesota 71 23.13
Ohio State 54 26.27
Indiana 76 26.43
North Carolina 30 26.53
Penn State 48 26.53
Maryland 62 28.33
UC Davis 38 28.57
UC San Diego 37 28.80
Virginia 23 33.60
UC Irvine 42 34.33
Colorado 88 36.93
Arizona 121 37.53
UC Santa Barbara 40 37.86
Purdue 62 42.20
Texas A&M 68 44.00
Florida 48 44.47
Rutgers 70 45.60
Stony Brook 88 47.00

Once Again, The New Republic Weighs in on the Ivies, and Here’s our Response

Once again, The New Republic  is featuring an article that discusses the pros and cons of an Ivy League education.  This time, the article comes in the form of a review of New York Times columnist Frank Bruni’s new book, Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be.

In the TNR review, called “It Doesn’t Matter if Your Kid Doesn’t Get into Harvard,” author Nick Romeo claims that Bruni is too focused on the ability of college grads from non-Ivy institutions to achieve material success on a par with Ivy grads.

“He’s not asking his readers to examine a cultural obsession with success, so much as assuring them that they can still impress others without attending highly selective undergraduate institutions,” Romeo writes. “Just look at all the people who run huge companies or work at prestigious consulting or law firms, he says. Not all of them went to Ivy League schools! There are ‘myriad routes to a corner office,’ as he puts it. He never seriously considers the possibility that college might shape students into adults who are not interested in a corner office.”

Romeo prefers the earlier challenge to Ivy education published in TNR: William Deresiewicz’s now famous article “Don’t Send Your Kid to the Ivy League,” which appeared on July 21, 2014, and has now been “shared” more than 200,000 times.  Deresiewwicz’s article argues that many less elite schools, such as public flagships, allow bright students more latitude to discover themselves in the midst of fellow students who are not all driven or overly-focused on channeling their lives toward one thing: an Ivy admission.

The fact is that college at its best is not an either/or proposition that pits learning for its own sake against training for a career.  In almost every college in the nation there are at least three broad types of students–those who are in alive with self-discovery and intellectual excitement, those who want to get out in a hurry and find a high-paying job, and many others who are open to intellectual expansion but are acutely aware that the “real world” awaits.

The subtitle of Bruni’s  book is “An Antidote to the College Admissions Mania.”  But Nick Romeo argues that what Bruni describes “is not a bracing cure; it’s a soothing balm for upper-middle class parents whose children do not quite manage to scale the highest peaks of prestige.”

We see Bruni’s book as less an antidote than a balancing argument to the one proposed by Deresiewicz.  While many smart “kids” do and should value intellectual stimulation, they and their parents need to be practical as well.  If Bruni over-emphasizes the “antidote” of achieving career success equivalent to that of Ivy grads without attending an Ivy school, his message is one that parents and prospective students need to hear.

As we have noted many times, there are far more bright students than there are places at Ivy institutions, and these bright students should be able to find, and should know that they can find, both intellectual and career equivalence at colleges outside the Ivy League, including public honors colleges and programs.

It is well known that admission to any highly selective college can be capricious, subjective, and even approach the formulaic.  Ivy colleges are wonderful, in most cases, for students who are both brilliant and fortunate.   Students who are “merely” brilliant at one brief point of their lives need to know that the rest of their lives can be as fulfilling in all ways as the lives of their more fortunate counterparts.

 

Here’s The Business Journals’ New Top 100 Public Colleges–and our Analysis

Here’s another college ranking–The Business Journals Public College Rankings 2015.  The rankings are interesting for a number of reasons, but they are also on the quirky side, given that 45% of the weight comes from campus and area demographic data, including racial and gender diversity, employment rates, rental costs, the percentage of college grads and share of young adults in the community, and Kiplinger-like assessments of cost vs. value.  About 55% of the weight comes from more traditional ranking topics: selectivity, grad and retention rates, and academic prestige.

Think of the TBJ rankings as Kiplinger meets Washington Monthly, via U.S. News and Forbes.

As we have noted elsewhere, ordinal rankings assign places based on minute differences in final calculations, and the actual differences between the top 3 in the TBJ rankings is 1.12 points out of 100.  Yet like most rankings and ratings, they are interesting and have some value, especially for those who want to a synthesis of the four main rankings.  The TBJ rankings based academic prestige on such a synthesis.

At the top of the list are few surprises, except that the usual rank order of the top 5 has shifted; Michigan is number 1, North Carolina, 2, followed by UVA, 3, William & Mary, 4, and UC Berkeley, 5.

 Below is a list of the 19 ranking categories, followed by a list of the top 100 public colleges, according to TBJ:

1. Admission rate (selectivity, 5 percent): The percentage of first-time undergraduate applicants who were admitted to the school.

2. Admission test score at the 25th percentile (5 percent).

3. Admission test score at the 75th percentile (5 percent).

4. Retention rate (10 percent).

5. Four-year graduation rate (10 percent).

6. Six-year graduation rate (5 percent).

7. Rankings by Forbes, Kiplinger’s, U.S. News and World Report, and Washington Monthly (prestige, 15 percent). The school’s performances in the latest rankings by these four publications, converted to a 400-point scale

8. Quality-affordability ratio (10 percent). The published in-state tuition, fees, room and board charges for 2013-14, divided by the sum of the school’s raw scores for selectivity, advancement and prestige.

9. Average net price for full-time undergraduates receiving grants or scholarships (5 percent).

10. Median monthly off-campus rent (5 percent): The median rent for all rental properties within the metropolitan area in which the school is located.

11. Share of undergraduates with out-of-state addresses (5 percent).

12. Racial diversity of student body (2.5 percent).

13. Racial diversity of faculty (2.5 percent). The Gini-Simpson index for the instructional staff, a measure that indicates the likelihood that two randomly selected instructors would be of different races.

14. Gender diversity of student body (2.5 percent).

15. Gender diversity of faculty (2.5 percent): The difference between the percentage of female instructional staffers and the female share of all 25- to 64-year-olds (50.59 percent).

16. Share of young adults (2.5 percent).

17. Unemployment rate for young adults (2.5 percent).

18. Share of young adults with bachelor’s degrees (2.5 percent).

19. Share of local jobs that are classified as management, business, science or arts jobs (2.5 percent).

The top 100 rankings…

• 1. University of Michigan (Michigan)

• 2. University of North Carolina (North Carolina)

• 3. University of Virginia (Virginia)

• 4. College of William and Mary (Virginia)

• 5. University of California-Berkeley (California)

• 6. University of California-Los Angeles (California)

• 7. University of Florida (Florida)

• 8. University of Maryland (Maryland)

• 9. University of Washington (Washington)

• 10. University of Wisconsin (Wisconsin)

• 11. University of Illinois (Illinois)

• 12. University of Texas (Texas)

• 13. Georgia Institute of Technology (Georgia)

• 14. University of California-San Diego (California)

• 15. Ohio State University (Ohio)

• 16. University of Georgia (Georgia)

• 17. University of Minnesota (Minnesota)

• 18. Binghamton University (New York)

• 19. University of Connecticut (Connecticut)

• 20. Texas A&M University (Texas)

• 21. University of California-Santa Barbara (California)

• 22. Indiana University (Indiana)

• 23. North Carolina State University (North Carolina)

• 24. Virginia Polytechnic Institute (Virginia)

• 25. University of California-Irvine (California)

• 26. Pennsylvania State University (Pennsylvania)

• 27. University of Delaware (Delaware)

• 28. Purdue University (Indiana)

• 29. University of Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania)

• 30. Rutgers University (New Jersey)

• 31. Florida State University (Florida)

• 32. Stony Brook University (New York)

• 33. Clemson University (South Carolina)

• 34. University of California-Davis (California)

• 35. SUNY Geneseo (New York)

• 36. College of New Jersey (New Jersey)

• 37. Michigan State University (Michigan)

• 38. University of Iowa (Iowa)

• 39. James Madison University (Virginia)

• 40. Truman State University (Missouri)

• 41. Miami University (Ohio) (Ohio)

• 42. University of Vermont (Vermont)

• 43. University of South Carolina (South Carolina)

• 44. Iowa State University (Iowa)

• 45. University of Missouri (Missouri)

• 46. University of Texas at Dallas (Texas)

• 47. University at Buffalo (New York)

• 48. University of Massachusetts (Massachusetts)

• 49. University of North Carolina at Wilmington (North Carolina)

• 50. New College of Florida (Florida)

• 51. Baruch College (New York)

• 52. Auburn University (Alabama)

• 53. Colorado School of Mines (Colorado)

• 54. University of Utah (Utah)

• 55. University of Colorado (Colorado)

• 56. California Polytechnic State University-San Luis Obispo (California)

• 57. University of Oklahoma (Oklahoma)

• 58. University of Alabama (Alabama)

• 59. University of Arkansas (Arkansas)

• 60. San Diego State University (California)

• 61. University of California-Santa Cruz (California)

• 62. George Mason University (Virginia)

• 63. University of South Florida (Florida)

• 64. University at Albany (New York)

• 65. SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry (New York)

• 66. Appalachian State University (North Carolina)

• 67. University of Mary Washington (Virginia)

• 68. University of New Hampshire (New Hampshire)

• 69. St. Mary’s College of Maryland (Maryland)

• 70. Arizona State University (Arizona)

• 71. Louisiana State University (Louisiana)

• 72. SUNY New Paltz (New York)

• 73. University of Nebraska (Nebraska)

• 74. University of Kansas (Kansas)

• 75. Hunter College (New York)

• 76. University of Oregon (Oregon)

• 77. University of Mississippi (Mississippi)

• 78. University of Maryland Baltimore County (Maryland)

• 79. University of Arizona (Arizona)

• 80. College of Charleston (South Carolina)

• 81. Colorado State University (Colorado)

• 82. University of Minnesota-Morris (Minnesota)

• 83. University of Central Florida (Florida)

• 84. University of Tennessee (Tennessee)

• 85. University of Wisconsin-La Crosse (Wisconsin)

• 86. Ramapo College of New Jersey (New Jersey)

• 87. Virginia Military Institute (Virginia)

• 88. University of California-Riverside (California)

• 89. Citadel Military College of South Carolina (South Carolina)

• 90. Oklahoma State University (Oklahoma)

• 91. University of North Carolina at Asheville (North Carolina)

• 92. Queens College (New York)

• 93. Oregon State University (Oregon)

• 94. Mississippi State University (Mississippi)

• 95. SUNY Oneonta (New York)

• 96. City College of New York (New York)

• 97. Purchase College (New York)

• 98. University of Wyoming (Wyoming)

• 99. Missouri University of Science and Technology (Missouri)

• 100. Towson University (Maryland)

Gallup and Purdue Study: Well-being for Grads Requires More than Income

What is most important about the “college experience”?  Good grades, of course.  But a recent report finds that the most important elements can be more difficult to measure.

Most parents and prospective students place an understandable emphasis on the employment and graduate school placement prospects for the graduates of a particular institution, but The Gallup Purdue Index of Well-Being makes a powerful argument that the long-term well-being for college grads is largely the result of the degree of engagement they have in the workplace, and not just the amount of money they earn.

Given the high cost of college, the Report assumes that the benefits of graduation should go beyond high starting pay and include the enjoyment of a well-lived life.  Gallup and Purdue do not discount the value of financial rewards but place them in a broader qualitative context.

The Report measures and describes the college experiences that lead to more fulfilling workplace engagement and a greater sense of well-being in the following areas:

  • Purpose–enjoying work and being motivated to do your best.
  • Social Well-Being–having love and support in your life.
  • Financial Well-Being–having sufficient financial resources to reduce stress and enhance security.
  • Community Well-Being–working within the local community, enjoying where you live, pride in the community.
  • Physical Well-Being–feeling well enough to do good work and enjoy life.

So what are the college experiences that promote engagement in the workplace and a sense of well-being in the above areas?

Students who believed that their college was a great fit for them (regardless of size and selectivity), who had professors who showed interest and made their subjects exciting, and who believed that their school prepared them well for life after college had the greatest degree of workplace engagement.

The Report demonstrates that the type of college makes little difference in workplace engagement and overall well-being, except that for-profit colleges do not promote a high degree of well-being and engagement.  The differences between public and private not-for-profit colleges, and between highly selective and less selective colleges, were minimal.  The most important elements were what students were doing in college and how they were experiencing their activities, rather than the elite or non-elite status of the school.  This finding seems to enforce what most college admissions counselors say: the most important thing for the student is finding the best fit.

More specifically, college experiences that promote engagement and prepare students for life after college are these:

  • Professors and mentors who provide inspiration, excitement, encouragement, and commitment.
  • Internships, preferably paid at some point, that directly connect university learning with the outside world.
  • Extracurricular activities, including social and special interest clubs, that directly connect learning with social engagement.
  • Long-term projects of a semester or more, including theses and capstone projects, which associate education with “deep learning” and not merely with rushed preparation for exams.
  • On-campus residence.
  • Minimal student loan debt, which is directly related to financial well-being.

The Report suggests that parents and prospective students should make direct inquiries about the best professors in the student’s proposed field of study and their availability; undergrad research programs and the means of gaining mentors; the availability of internships, including some that are paid; the presence of clubs or social groups that align with the student’s interests; and the opportunities for “deep learning” and the ways students can be aware of them and seize the opportunities.

One further implication of the Report is that a dramatic increase in online instruction would seriously diminish the advantages and a residential college experience can have for future workplace engagement and well-being.

In conclusion, we will note that many public honors colleges and programs make all of these elements more accessible, or even a part of their completion requirements.  Many require an honors thesis; they all provide opportunities for social engagement with serious students; most have connections to undergrad researchers and mentors; and most connect their students with small classes and top professors.  In addition, most have special honors residence halls and enhanced opportunities for financial aid, including non-need-based merit aid.

 

The Academic Reputation Ranking in U.S. News: What It Means for Honors Students

Editor’s Note: This post was updated on August 15, 2017, to include new honors class size averages based on our most recent data.

In a previous post, Based on Academic Reputation Alone, Publics Would Be Higher in U.S. News Rankings, we write that many public universities have a reputation in the academic community that is much higher than their overall ranking by U.S. News.  In this post, we will summarize the reasons that prospective honors students and their parents might consider paying more attention to academic reputation than to other factors in the oft-cited rankings.

(Another related post: Alternative U.S. News Rankings: Lots of Surprises.)

First, these are factors to consider if the state university’s academic reputation is much stronger than its overall ranking:

1.  The overall rankings penalize public universities for their typically larger class sizes, but the average honors class size in the 50 major honors programs we track is 26.3 students, much smaller than the average class size for the universities as a whole.  Most of these honors classes are lower-division, where the preponderance of large classes is often the norm. First-year honors seminars and classes for honors-only students average 19 students per section.  Result:  the relatively poor rating the whole university might receive for class size is offset for honors students.

2.  The overall rankings hit some public universities hard for having relatively low retention and graduation percentages, but freshmen retention rates in honors programs are in the 90% range and higher; meanwhile six-year grad rates for honors entrants average 89%–much higher than the average rates for the universities as a whole.  Result: the lower rates for the universities as a whole are offset for honors students.

3.  All public universities suffer in the overall rankings because U.S. News assigns ranking points for both the wealth of the university as a whole and for the impact that wealth has on professors’ salaries, smaller class sizes, etc.  This is a double whammy in its consideration of inputs and outputs separately; only the outputs should be rated.  Result: the outputs for class size (see above) are offset for honors students, and the wealth of the university as an input should not be considered in the first place.

4.  For highly-qualified students interested in graduate or professional school, academic reputation and the ability to work with outstanding research faculty are big advantages. Honors students have enhanced opportunities to work with outstanding faculty members even in large research universities, many of which are likely to have strong departmental rankings in the student’s subject area.  Result: honors students are not penalized for the research focus of public research universities; instead, they benefit from it.

5.  Many wealthy private elites are generous in funding all, or most, need-based aid, but increasingly offer little or no merit aid.  This means that families might receive all the need-based aid they “deserve” according to a federal or institutional calculation and still face annual college costs of $16,000 to $50,000.  On the other hand, national scholars and other highly-qualified students can still receive significant merit aid at most public universities.  Result: if a public university has an academic reputation equal to that of a wealthy private elite, an honors student could be better off financially and not suffer academically in a public honors program.

But…what if the academic reputation of the public university is lower than that of a private school under consideration?   In this case, the public honors option should offer the following offsets:

1. The net cost advantage of the public university, including merit aid, probably needs to be significant.

2.  It is extremely important to evaluate the specific components of the honors program to determine if it provides a major “value-added” advantage–is it, relatively, better than the university as a whole.  Typically, the answer will be yes.  To determine how much better, look at the academic disciplines covered by the honors program, the actual class sizes, retention and graduation rates, research opportunities, and even honors housing and perks, such as priority registration.